Monday, March 06, 2006
Grace Conference: Dallas
At the urging of some friends that blog I will give my experience on the conference at Dallas last week.
First of all there is no doubt of the spirit of grace evident on the faces and actions of most all that were there.
Of all the speakers there I have to say that Mr. Ryrie touched my heart most of all. His ability to bring events in the bible home to 2006 is tremendous. What I really liked was his message from Acts as a call to all of us who are saved by the simple of message of faith in Christ alone for salvation to walk clean or blameless before God, so that God can use us in a dying world to show His grace to them.
Mr. Hodges is such a gifted speaker and communicator. I like his examples and the style he uses. I have not read much of what Mr. Hodges has written, but what I heard from him down there really interest me.
I also enjoyed Richard Seymour's & Freddie Coile's workshops. They stressed the need to proclaim a clear gospel that is so much needed in churches and evanglistic preaching today.
I have some critique's though.
I did not agree with one of the plenary speakers message that if a person does not believe in eternal security at the time he believes in Christ for salvation, then that person does not have everlasting life. I think it is a stretch to put a burden on person to know that God has saved them forever at the time they first believe. When we are lost we are part of this world system of performance or doing something for self-worth. After a person believes, this does not just go away over night. In fact Paul stressed walking by the same faith as when we first believed. The world system of doing in order to get (anti-grace) is deeply ingrained in the flesh, it is impossible to bring this under control, in fact Paul says our flesh is corrupted and being corrupted. We still live in this fleshly body with all its desires. I troubles me that those who mature in the faith forget what it is like to be a new Christian and try to burden down requirements on people, truth that they themselves did not know until months or years of understanding what had happened to them at the time of their conversion. Trying to say that a person HAS to believe in eternal security at the time of conversion is really no different then those who try to add works as a condition.
All in all I really enjoyed my time there and will take time reading the books and pondering what I heard for the next few months and decide if I accept every part of it. Ever since I came back to the Lord in 2004 I have this mantra that I proclaim. Its Colossians 2:8 we all would do well not to let any teaching or doctrine set itself up above Christ Himself, Who is eternal life.
Following philosophy and traditions is what led to my fall from grace early in my Christian life. By God's grace and the Holy Spirit I determine not to let that happen again, it has no power over the flesh and it leads to pride of which we all know that pride goest before the fall.
Grace & Peace
Kris
First of all there is no doubt of the spirit of grace evident on the faces and actions of most all that were there.
Of all the speakers there I have to say that Mr. Ryrie touched my heart most of all. His ability to bring events in the bible home to 2006 is tremendous. What I really liked was his message from Acts as a call to all of us who are saved by the simple of message of faith in Christ alone for salvation to walk clean or blameless before God, so that God can use us in a dying world to show His grace to them.
Mr. Hodges is such a gifted speaker and communicator. I like his examples and the style he uses. I have not read much of what Mr. Hodges has written, but what I heard from him down there really interest me.
I also enjoyed Richard Seymour's & Freddie Coile's workshops. They stressed the need to proclaim a clear gospel that is so much needed in churches and evanglistic preaching today.
I have some critique's though.
I did not agree with one of the plenary speakers message that if a person does not believe in eternal security at the time he believes in Christ for salvation, then that person does not have everlasting life. I think it is a stretch to put a burden on person to know that God has saved them forever at the time they first believe. When we are lost we are part of this world system of performance or doing something for self-worth. After a person believes, this does not just go away over night. In fact Paul stressed walking by the same faith as when we first believed. The world system of doing in order to get (anti-grace) is deeply ingrained in the flesh, it is impossible to bring this under control, in fact Paul says our flesh is corrupted and being corrupted. We still live in this fleshly body with all its desires. I troubles me that those who mature in the faith forget what it is like to be a new Christian and try to burden down requirements on people, truth that they themselves did not know until months or years of understanding what had happened to them at the time of their conversion. Trying to say that a person HAS to believe in eternal security at the time of conversion is really no different then those who try to add works as a condition.
All in all I really enjoyed my time there and will take time reading the books and pondering what I heard for the next few months and decide if I accept every part of it. Ever since I came back to the Lord in 2004 I have this mantra that I proclaim. Its Colossians 2:8 we all would do well not to let any teaching or doctrine set itself up above Christ Himself, Who is eternal life.
Following philosophy and traditions is what led to my fall from grace early in my Christian life. By God's grace and the Holy Spirit I determine not to let that happen again, it has no power over the flesh and it leads to pride of which we all know that pride goest before the fall.
Grace & Peace
Kris
Comments:
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I could tell already the conference was a great blessing to you and I'm so thankful. You and I might be considered hyper-free gracers for our position on what must be believed at conversion. I am very comfortable with my understanding but remain open to the scripture. So far the only arguments I've had against it are logical and contrary to scripture. Another great post brother!
Hi Kris,
Thanks so much for your report.
I would guess that a lot of the people seated around you had views about that issue closer to yours and Kc's than people like Bob or Zane.
To me it's a sign of health in a Christian movement that we're not going around parotting each other! Let each of us be fully convinced :)
But I'm glad that Bob isn't afraid of controversy either :)
(My husband and I disagree on that point as well)
Thanks again for your encouragement,
Warmly,
Jodie
Thanks so much for your report.
I would guess that a lot of the people seated around you had views about that issue closer to yours and Kc's than people like Bob or Zane.
To me it's a sign of health in a Christian movement that we're not going around parotting each other! Let each of us be fully convinced :)
But I'm glad that Bob isn't afraid of controversy either :)
(My husband and I disagree on that point as well)
Thanks again for your encouragement,
Warmly,
Jodie
Kris;
I was at the conference and heard the plenary session on this issue. I followed the "wrap up" conversation that afternoon with great interest. Later that evening I discussed the issue with Earl and several others. A friend and I debated the issue back and forth until almost midnight.
I think that a clarification is in order. If you heard them saying, "A person must believe the doctrine of eternal security" you misunderstood what was being said. But that's not your fault because the message was muddled in the ensuing conversation.
What was meant is that a person who savingly believes the gospel message is certain of being secure in Christ. The issue is not whether they understand or advocate the developed doctrine of the security of the believer, but whether they are convinced that Jesus' promise is absolutely true.
As Zane made clear in his presentation, the person who harbors doubt about Jesus' promise - which necessarily means that they have doubts about His identity - does not believe the gospel and therefore are not born again. One cannot enter into eternal life while at that same instant doubt Jesus' promise.
In the ensuing conversation many people conflated Zane's "being certain at the moment of faith" with "asserting and defending the doctrine of eternal security."
I hope that clarifies things.
Although I was initialilly inclined to disagree - because I was understaning Zane et al to be speaking about the doctrine of security, upon further reflection I think they are right.
I was at the conference and heard the plenary session on this issue. I followed the "wrap up" conversation that afternoon with great interest. Later that evening I discussed the issue with Earl and several others. A friend and I debated the issue back and forth until almost midnight.
I think that a clarification is in order. If you heard them saying, "A person must believe the doctrine of eternal security" you misunderstood what was being said. But that's not your fault because the message was muddled in the ensuing conversation.
What was meant is that a person who savingly believes the gospel message is certain of being secure in Christ. The issue is not whether they understand or advocate the developed doctrine of the security of the believer, but whether they are convinced that Jesus' promise is absolutely true.
As Zane made clear in his presentation, the person who harbors doubt about Jesus' promise - which necessarily means that they have doubts about His identity - does not believe the gospel and therefore are not born again. One cannot enter into eternal life while at that same instant doubt Jesus' promise.
In the ensuing conversation many people conflated Zane's "being certain at the moment of faith" with "asserting and defending the doctrine of eternal security."
I hope that clarifies things.
Although I was initialilly inclined to disagree - because I was understaning Zane et al to be speaking about the doctrine of security, upon further reflection I think they are right.
# posted by 
: 9:17 AM
: 9:17 AM
Thanks for your comments Bud.
The issue is still somewhat confusing to me the way it was laid out. I understand what you are saying to clear it up. I am not trying to be argumentive.
I understand what Zane said about being sure of the promise of eternal life in Christ. I believe many have been assured in their spirit by the Holy Spirit at the moment they first believed. But my posit is that some do not always retain this assurance because of bad preaching they have heard and also known sin can let the enemy in to create havoc and doubts.
If Zane said this:
"As Zane made clear in his presentation, the person who harbors doubt about Jesus' promise - which necessarily means that they have doubts about His identity - does not believe the gospel and therefore are not born again. One cannot enter into eternal life while at that same instant doubt Jesus' promise."
I disagree with it to point that if any person has been assured "once" they have believed, if the person has tasted that the Lord is good and then have doubts later on, even doubts to the point of falling away this does not nullify the faithfulness of God.
2 Timothy 2:13
In other words just because someone may fall into legalism or just plain falls away into sins of the flesh, this does not negate that our God, who will not lie, will not keep His promise to those who have called upon Him while believing in their heart that Jesus alone paid for their sin.
Regardless, its not worth intense debate over as far as I can see. We can agree to disagree and still make the gospel message of faith alone in Christ alone our unity and build each other up in this most Holy faith.
I appreciate you and all those who comment on my blog.
Grace & Peace in the Lord
Kris
The issue is still somewhat confusing to me the way it was laid out. I understand what you are saying to clear it up. I am not trying to be argumentive.
I understand what Zane said about being sure of the promise of eternal life in Christ. I believe many have been assured in their spirit by the Holy Spirit at the moment they first believed. But my posit is that some do not always retain this assurance because of bad preaching they have heard and also known sin can let the enemy in to create havoc and doubts.
If Zane said this:
"As Zane made clear in his presentation, the person who harbors doubt about Jesus' promise - which necessarily means that they have doubts about His identity - does not believe the gospel and therefore are not born again. One cannot enter into eternal life while at that same instant doubt Jesus' promise."
I disagree with it to point that if any person has been assured "once" they have believed, if the person has tasted that the Lord is good and then have doubts later on, even doubts to the point of falling away this does not nullify the faithfulness of God.
2 Timothy 2:13
In other words just because someone may fall into legalism or just plain falls away into sins of the flesh, this does not negate that our God, who will not lie, will not keep His promise to those who have called upon Him while believing in their heart that Jesus alone paid for their sin.
Regardless, its not worth intense debate over as far as I can see. We can agree to disagree and still make the gospel message of faith alone in Christ alone our unity and build each other up in this most Holy faith.
I appreciate you and all those who comment on my blog.
Grace & Peace in the Lord
Kris
Hi Kris,
Great comments here.
Could I just say that there is no way Hodges would say you have to keep your assurance for the rest of your life. He for sure would be contradicting much of what he stands for. The issue is a one time thing, as Bud clarified nicely :)
Thanks again for the report.
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Great comments here.
Could I just say that there is no way Hodges would say you have to keep your assurance for the rest of your life. He for sure would be contradicting much of what he stands for. The issue is a one time thing, as Bud clarified nicely :)
Thanks again for the report.
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